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	<title>Comments on: Scaling Scrum: the alcoholic perspective</title>
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	<link>http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/04/09/scaling-scrum-the-alcoholic-perspective/</link>
	<description>Tobias Mayer's Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Dan Schaeffer</title>
		<link>http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/04/09/scaling-scrum-the-alcoholic-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-160581</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Schaeffer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 21:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think what this is missing has been been touched upon by Christina.  The person who asks that question is channeling her manager.  The questioner may have utter faith in the ability of the scrum framework to arrive at a solution but she knows her organization will not make space for the framework to do its job without some sort of guarantee that it will succeed.  It&#039;s dandy to say that a self-organized team will empirically create a process that will enable a large project to be estimated but it would be a much easier sell if you could point to an example of how that worked elsewhere.

In my line of work we build and sell expensive instruments for analyical chemists that are driven by large software data systems (3-4 million lines of code).  These systems have to control and optimize the instrument, store and analyze the data for 30 different applications, enforce security policies for provenance of the data, enable distributed data processing, and produce all manner of different printed reports.  When my manager says to me &quot;How long will it take us to move all of our existing functionality from the Mac to the PC and what will it cost?&quot; all I can say to him is that I need to convene a scrum team of 7 people and we will self-organize into a team that will develop an empirical process which will iterate toward an estimate.  While that may be the most honest answer, you&#039;re not likely going to be asked to do the job.  It would be far better to be able to say &quot;This is the process by which one scrum team managed to deploy scrum across a group of 28 developers and delivered a product of similar magnitude in 3 years.  If you&#039;ll allow me to form a team, I&#039;m sure we can empirically create a process process that will enable us to give you an estimate.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think what this is missing has been been touched upon by Christina.  The person who asks that question is channeling her manager.  The questioner may have utter faith in the ability of the scrum framework to arrive at a solution but she knows her organization will not make space for the framework to do its job without some sort of guarantee that it will succeed.  It&#8217;s dandy to say that a self-organized team will empirically create a process that will enable a large project to be estimated but it would be a much easier sell if you could point to an example of how that worked elsewhere.</p>
<p>In my line of work we build and sell expensive instruments for analyical chemists that are driven by large software data systems (3-4 million lines of code).  These systems have to control and optimize the instrument, store and analyze the data for 30 different applications, enforce security policies for provenance of the data, enable distributed data processing, and produce all manner of different printed reports.  When my manager says to me &#8220;How long will it take us to move all of our existing functionality from the Mac to the PC and what will it cost?&#8221; all I can say to him is that I need to convene a scrum team of 7 people and we will self-organize into a team that will develop an empirical process which will iterate toward an estimate.  While that may be the most honest answer, you&#8217;re not likely going to be asked to do the job.  It would be far better to be able to say &#8220;This is the process by which one scrum team managed to deploy scrum across a group of 28 developers and delivered a product of similar magnitude in 3 years.  If you&#8217;ll allow me to form a team, I&#8217;m sure we can empirically create a process process that will enable us to give you an estimate.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Scrum 4 You &#8212; News of the week &#124; Blogs and more</title>
		<link>http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/04/09/scaling-scrum-the-alcoholic-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-158574</link>
		<dc:creator>Scrum 4 You &#8212; News of the week &#124; Blogs and more</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:02:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Scrum the alcoholic perspective, Tobias Mayer [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Scrum the alcoholic perspective, Tobias Mayer [...]</p>
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		<title>By: sulis</title>
		<link>http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/04/09/scaling-scrum-the-alcoholic-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-140667</link>
		<dc:creator>sulis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 22:25:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/04/09/scaling-scrum-the-alcoholic-perspective/#comment-140667</guid>
		<description>Thank you so much for posting this. I am researching this topic for a private matter and this is very helpful and informative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you so much for posting this. I am researching this topic for a private matter and this is very helpful and informative.</p>
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		<title>By: HL Arledge</title>
		<link>http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/04/09/scaling-scrum-the-alcoholic-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-95446</link>
		<dc:creator>HL Arledge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:55:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Great analogy, Tobias. What prompted you to think of it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great analogy, Tobias. What prompted you to think of it?</p>
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		<title>By: Gerald Williams</title>
		<link>http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/04/09/scaling-scrum-the-alcoholic-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-94522</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerald Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 16:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/04/09/scaling-scrum-the-alcoholic-perspective/#comment-94522</guid>
		<description>Interesting analogy. Re your quote &#039;it benefits more from a one-foot-in-front-of the-other approach, embodying learning along the way.&#039; Are you also saying that organisational change needs to be one step at a time, one group at a time? If so , his does not seem to concur with the successful implementations of organisational change which centre around a sense of urgency and getting it done asap.

&lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Response:&lt;/strong&gt;  Gerald, interesting question.  In short I don&#039;t know.  Organizational change depends so much on the current culture, it is hard to make any generalizations.  In a crisis a really great leader can rally an entire company around new ideas very quickly, but such leaders are rare.  Sometimes change has to happen in a manner of &quot;small leaps&quot;, rather like evolution, which takes longer to effect a full transformation, but may be more appropriate for the culture.  Pre-planning organizational change is likely to be as futile as second-guessing any complex system.  You just have to do it, and figure it out on the way.&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting analogy. Re your quote &#8216;it benefits more from a one-foot-in-front-of the-other approach, embodying learning along the way.&#8217; Are you also saying that organisational change needs to be one step at a time, one group at a time? If so , his does not seem to concur with the successful implementations of organisational change which centre around a sense of urgency and getting it done asap.</p>
<p><em><strong>Response:</strong>  Gerald, interesting question.  In short I don&#8217;t know.  Organizational change depends so much on the current culture, it is hard to make any generalizations.  In a crisis a really great leader can rally an entire company around new ideas very quickly, but such leaders are rare.  Sometimes change has to happen in a manner of &#8220;small leaps&#8221;, rather like evolution, which takes longer to effect a full transformation, but may be more appropriate for the culture.  Pre-planning organizational change is likely to be as futile as second-guessing any complex system.  You just have to do it, and figure it out on the way.</em></p>
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		<title>By: Christina Skaskiw</title>
		<link>http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/04/09/scaling-scrum-the-alcoholic-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-91596</link>
		<dc:creator>Christina Skaskiw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:14:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/04/09/scaling-scrum-the-alcoholic-perspective/#comment-91596</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m realizing I&#039;m way late on commenting here, but in defense of those of us who ask the question prematurely: at least for me, it&#039;s looking for reassurance that it&#039;s going to be worth my while learning Scrum, because if it doesn&#039;t scale, I would need something else, something that does scale. But for now I&#039;m happy to take your word for it :)
/Christina</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m realizing I&#8217;m way late on commenting here, but in defense of those of us who ask the question prematurely: at least for me, it&#8217;s looking for reassurance that it&#8217;s going to be worth my while learning Scrum, because if it doesn&#8217;t scale, I would need something else, something that does scale. But for now I&#8217;m happy to take your word for it <img src='http://agilethinking.net/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
/Christina</p>
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		<title>By: Henrik Kniberg</title>
		<link>http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/04/09/scaling-scrum-the-alcoholic-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-71949</link>
		<dc:creator>Henrik Kniberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 08:23:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/04/09/scaling-scrum-the-alcoholic-perspective/#comment-71949</guid>
		<description>Excellent post, very powerful analogy!
/Henrik</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent post, very powerful analogy!<br />
/Henrik</p>
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		<title>By: Boris Gloger</title>
		<link>http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/04/09/scaling-scrum-the-alcoholic-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-71756</link>
		<dc:creator>Boris Gloger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 08:27:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/04/09/scaling-scrum-the-alcoholic-perspective/#comment-71756</guid>
		<description>I have the same phenomenon in my classes and I will answer more or less the same: First learn the principles than try to go to the next level.

For me the more important was to understand why they do ask this question? Is it really because they do have large projects. Are there really all this big companies with these monstrous projects? -- Then I started to read Friedmanns book: &quot;The world is flat&quot; And the answer is so obvious that I was embarrassed that I did not have seen it earlier: These people are confronted with a new reality: The globalization of our industry and they try to find ways to work in this new environment. They are seeking guidlines, helpful hints.

The question they ask is not: Show me how Scrum solved the outsourcing thing that we do -- the question is rather: We do have a problem. We need to work with people across the ocean but we have no clue. Does Scrum has an answer?

And then we do make the mistake: We say -- no Scrum does not have the answer. What we create is again insecurity. Leadership is about creating security. Our answer should be -- yes -- Scrum is the answer --- we know how to do it. And by the way: after five years doing Scrum we know how to do it. But we need to convey that the way of doing it is using principles of self-organization.

&lt;span style=&quot;font-style: italic&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-weight: bold&quot;&gt;Response:&lt;/span&gt; Boris, I agree there is insecurity, but I don&#039;t think we create it by our responses.  It is there, and perhaps it is okay.  It is the truth, at least.  I don&#039;t actually believe that &quot;Scrum is the answer&quot;, rather I think the response might be &quot;you have the answer: Scrum will help you uncover it&quot;.&lt;/span&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have the same phenomenon in my classes and I will answer more or less the same: First learn the principles than try to go to the next level.</p>
<p>For me the more important was to understand why they do ask this question? Is it really because they do have large projects. Are there really all this big companies with these monstrous projects? &#8212; Then I started to read Friedmanns book: &#8220;The world is flat&#8221; And the answer is so obvious that I was embarrassed that I did not have seen it earlier: These people are confronted with a new reality: The globalization of our industry and they try to find ways to work in this new environment. They are seeking guidlines, helpful hints.</p>
<p>The question they ask is not: Show me how Scrum solved the outsourcing thing that we do &#8212; the question is rather: We do have a problem. We need to work with people across the ocean but we have no clue. Does Scrum has an answer?</p>
<p>And then we do make the mistake: We say &#8212; no Scrum does not have the answer. What we create is again insecurity. Leadership is about creating security. Our answer should be &#8212; yes &#8212; Scrum is the answer &#8212; we know how to do it. And by the way: after five years doing Scrum we know how to do it. But we need to convey that the way of doing it is using principles of self-organization.</p>
<p><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Response:</span> Boris, I agree there is insecurity, but I don&#8217;t think we create it by our responses.  It is there, and perhaps it is okay.  It is the truth, at least.  I don&#8217;t actually believe that &#8220;Scrum is the answer&#8221;, rather I think the response might be &#8220;you have the answer: Scrum will help you uncover it&#8221;.</span></p>
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		<title>By: Michael Hamman</title>
		<link>http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/04/09/scaling-scrum-the-alcoholic-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-71585</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Hamman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:54:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/04/09/scaling-scrum-the-alcoholic-perspective/#comment-71585</guid>
		<description>&#039;Scaling&#039; Scrum has always struck me as a rather strange notion.  It presupposes that organizational systems are entirely fractal, with each larger subdivision of it merely an exact replica, in the large, of the smaller one.  Think of the idea that young children are simply small adults.  A moment’s reflection (and experience!) inform us of just what a mistaken view this can be.

However, I too am frequently asked to help organizations ‘scale’ Scrum, before they have even adequately gained their footing in its most elementary foundation.  Basically, all I can say at this point is “Well, let’s see how things go.”  How can I, they, or anybody know what an organization, whose development is supported by Scrum, will look like, will need, 2 years from now?  That is, how can I, or anybody know, what profession my now 2-year old son might enter?

&quot;Well, let&#039;s see how things go.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Scaling&#8217; Scrum has always struck me as a rather strange notion.  It presupposes that organizational systems are entirely fractal, with each larger subdivision of it merely an exact replica, in the large, of the smaller one.  Think of the idea that young children are simply small adults.  A moment’s reflection (and experience!) inform us of just what a mistaken view this can be.</p>
<p>However, I too am frequently asked to help organizations ‘scale’ Scrum, before they have even adequately gained their footing in its most elementary foundation.  Basically, all I can say at this point is “Well, let’s see how things go.”  How can I, they, or anybody know what an organization, whose development is supported by Scrum, will look like, will need, 2 years from now?  That is, how can I, or anybody know, what profession my now 2-year old son might enter?</p>
<p>&#8220;Well, let&#8217;s see how things go.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Seth</title>
		<link>http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/04/09/scaling-scrum-the-alcoholic-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-71124</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 02:43:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/04/09/scaling-scrum-the-alcoholic-perspective/#comment-71124</guid>
		<description>Of course its relevant. Scrum, like AA, deals with basic esoteric truths, truths that cut across boundaries. 

For example, empiricism in Scrum--&quot;the continuous inspect/adapt process that allows both workers and managers to make decisions in real time, based on actual data, and as a result respond quickly to ever-changing conditions in the surrounding environment&quot;--is essentially the same thing as the Serenity Prayer: &quot;God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can, and wisdom to know the difference.&quot; 

In esoteric philosophy, one might simply say: Be Here Now, which means be conscious of the moment, of the conditions of the moment, and how they might change, and adapt with awareness, with an open heart. 

I like how this sort of philosophy, by its very nature, encourages compassion and adaptation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course its relevant. Scrum, like AA, deals with basic esoteric truths, truths that cut across boundaries. </p>
<p>For example, empiricism in Scrum&#8211;&#8221;the continuous inspect/adapt process that allows both workers and managers to make decisions in real time, based on actual data, and as a result respond quickly to ever-changing conditions in the surrounding environment&#8221;&#8211;is essentially the same thing as the Serenity Prayer: &#8220;God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can, and wisdom to know the difference.&#8221; </p>
<p>In esoteric philosophy, one might simply say: Be Here Now, which means be conscious of the moment, of the conditions of the moment, and how they might change, and adapt with awareness, with an open heart. </p>
<p>I like how this sort of philosophy, by its very nature, encourages compassion and adaptation.</p>
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