Comments on: Getting Trashed by the Lean Machine http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/ Tobias Mayer's Blog Sat, 06 Feb 2010 21:50:16 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Alan Shalloway http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/comment-page-1/#comment-138713 Alan Shalloway Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:44:57 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/#comment-138713 Tobias: I won't make an extensive reply because I'm not sure of the value of it. But let me say this, no one I know has been thrown off the Lean Development or Lean Agile Scrum user group for discussing variant views. Many people, including many who would be considered industry dignataries and myself (twice) for expressing views that Ken - the icon of Scrum - didn't want to hear. Of course, he always has had a reason instead of just not wanting to listen. Maybe what goes around comes around. <em><strong>Response:</strong> Alan, I can't speak for Ken, but seeing as you brought this up I understood that you got kicked off the list (twice, implying you were invited back once) for using it as a tool to promote your training classes.  Which seems reasonable, no?</em> Tobias:
I won’t make an extensive reply because I’m not sure of the value of it. But let me say this, no one I know has been thrown off the Lean Development or Lean Agile Scrum user group for discussing variant views. Many people, including many who would be considered industry dignataries and myself (twice) for expressing views that Ken – the icon of Scrum – didn’t want to hear. Of course, he always has had a reason instead of just not wanting to listen. Maybe what goes around comes around.

Response: Alan, I can’t speak for Ken, but seeing as you brought this up I understood that you got kicked off the list (twice, implying you were invited back once) for using it as a tool to promote your training classes.  Which seems reasonable, no?

]]> By: Agustin Villena http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/comment-page-1/#comment-138712 Agustin Villena Wed, 29 Oct 2008 01:31:45 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/#comment-138712 Tobias: First I want to thnk you for your great workshop about Agile Games at Agiles2008. I really enjoyed it. I'm an XP guy, since my approach to agile development started reading and applying "Extreme Programming Explained". In my first years learning XP and teaching to my students my discoveries, the "scrum like" part of XP was the first that shows its value complemneted with Pair Programming, but when I went deep and finally got TDD and the other "hard XP" practices was when I realized the full potential of agility. In my country (Chile) we are far from the CSM courses, and when I knew that a "Certified Scrum Master" certification took only two days... I was shocked. Now, that I knew several CSM guys, I don't have any doubt about the honesty of their effot in implement agility, but the very name "Certified Scrum Master" is really misleading: in two days one can only acquire a very rough understanding of agility, and take years to be a good Agile Coach, and more years to be capable to guide others guys with years of experience as apprentices to be coaches themselves. I really hope that this issue will be resolved with the intention of strengthening the movement agile In my 7 years working with XP, I've foudn that improving it with Scrum tools in the management area make my agile method only better, and lean has made it contributions too. Goog job and good luck Tobias:

First I want to thnk you for your great workshop about Agile Games at Agiles2008. I really enjoyed it.

I’m an XP guy, since my approach to agile development started reading and applying “Extreme Programming Explained”. In my first years learning XP and teaching to my students my discoveries, the “scrum like” part of XP was the first that shows its value complemneted with Pair Programming, but when I went deep and finally got TDD and the other “hard XP” practices was when I realized the full potential of agility.

In my country (Chile) we are far from the CSM courses, and when I knew that a “Certified Scrum Master” certification took only two days… I was shocked. Now, that I knew several CSM guys, I don’t have any doubt about the honesty of their effot in implement agility, but the very name “Certified Scrum Master” is really misleading: in two days one can only acquire a very rough understanding of agility, and take years to be a good Agile Coach, and more years to be capable to guide others guys with years of experience as apprentices to be coaches themselves. I really hope that this issue will be resolved with the intention of strengthening the movement agile

In my 7 years working with XP, I’ve foudn that improving it with Scrum tools in the management area make my agile method only better, and lean has made it contributions too.

Goog job and good luck

]]> By: Mariano Koldobsky http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/comment-page-1/#comment-138711 Mariano Koldobsky Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:46:43 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/#comment-138711 Harmony is the solution. There is no technological solution to violence. We have seen on Tobias workshop games that if I have a knife, you will have a gun and then I will have a gun machine and you will have a cannon. After a while nobody remember what was the cause at the beginning that brought us to the escalating of violence. But we do know how this is going to end ‘destruction’. Mary, herself, has talked about this in the same session. She said, the way to overcome tensions is in harmony. She talked about Yin and Yang. But after that she has contributed to escalating of violence. Collaboration, self-organization, reflection, courage, trustfulness are very harmonious concepts of Scrum. I think build ‘working software’, or whatever we build, is our contribution to a harmonious world. Thank you, Tobias, for the excellent course you gave us. Harmony is the solution. There is no technological solution to violence. We have seen on Tobias workshop games that if I have a knife, you will have a gun and then I will have a gun machine and you will have a cannon. After a while nobody remember what was the cause at the beginning that brought us to the escalating of violence. But we do know how this is going to end ‘destruction’.
Mary, herself, has talked about this in the same session. She said, the way to overcome tensions is in harmony. She talked about Yin and Yang. But after that she has contributed to escalating of violence.
Collaboration, self-organization, reflection, courage, trustfulness are very harmonious concepts of Scrum. I think build ‘working software’, or whatever we build, is our contribution to a harmonious world.
Thank you, Tobias, for the excellent course you gave us.

]]> By: Nick Oostvogels http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/comment-page-1/#comment-138710 Nick Oostvogels Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:30:21 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/#comment-138710 It is clear the name Certified Scrum Master on its own is at the base of all these discussions. Would the course be this popular if the alliance had called it Scrum Foundation course without a 'certification' attached to it? I believe not. On the other hand, isn't it great that the CSM course is so popular? It can be a start for a lot of people to get interested in the broader agile perspective. The danger of starting a project with an unexperienced scrum master can never be eliminated. That is were common sense should play a role. You could also start a complex software development project with a set of developers whose experience is limited to a 5 day introduction to C#. Baseline: the right people on the job. It is clear the name Certified Scrum Master on its own is at the base of all these discussions. Would the course be this popular if the alliance had called it Scrum Foundation course without a ‘certification’ attached to it? I believe not. On the other hand, isn’t it great that the CSM course is so popular? It can be a start for a lot of people to get interested in the broader agile perspective. The danger of starting a project with an unexperienced scrum master can never be eliminated. That is were common sense should play a role. You could also start a complex software development project with a set of developers whose experience is limited to a 5 day introduction to C#. Baseline: the right people on the job.

]]> By: Agile in Buenos Aires http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/comment-page-1/#comment-138709 Agile in Buenos Aires Mon, 27 Oct 2008 15:47:29 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/#comment-138709 [...] Posted by Micah Mon, 27 Oct 2008 15:46:00 GMT Last week I attended Agiles2008 in Buenos Aires, Argentina. It was a fun, high energy conference. The highlight was a heated panel discussion at the closing of the conference. On the Panel was Matt Gelbwaks, myself, Tom and Marry Poppdieck, Dave Nicolette, and Tobias Mayer. Tobias has already posted a blog about the event. So that my opinion is not misconstrued, I'll share it with you here. The future of Agile is Software Craftsmanship. Software is a young industry and we're still discovering more about it every day. Yet, it has it's origins in electrical engineering. So it's seems that, at it's inception, people assumed software was a form of engineering. And to build software systems should be no different from engineering any other creation. Take a bridge for example. Before building a bridge, you have to analyze the bridge requirements. How long will it be? How much weight must it hold? etc... Once the requirements are understood, you design a solution. Build to-scale models that you can push and stress to make sure the design hold up. Then, once you have a solid design, can you begin construction of the bridge. It's waterfall. Waterfall worked for engineering so waterfall was applied to software. We know now that waterfall doesn't work. Agile, is a realization that software is not a form of engineering. Agile is a realization that software is a craft. I have been to every North American Agile conference since the very first, and I have noticed a trend. In the first conference in Charlotte NC, laptops were open on every table, around every corner, with someone or a pair of people writing code. In many of the sessions, people were writing code or talking about it. This is the conference where people were bragging about their Ward number and desperately trying to improve it. It was truly a conference about software. Over the years, less and less coding could be found at the conferences. This last year, at the conference in Toronto, it was abysmal. Although there was some good content, I felt like the conference had been taken over by Scrum Masters. It was no longer a conference about software development. It had become a conference about project management, people management, and Scrum. This makes me sad. In middle ages, if you were a lord and you wanted to build a cathedral, you found a master craftsman. The master craftsman recruited other craftsmen and together they constructed amazing buildings that still stand today. These craftsman were passionate about their work and cared about creating great buildings. That is what made it work. They didn't have scrum masters telling them what to do or cheering them on. The great work they did is a tribute to their craftsmanship. The future of Agile is Software Craftsmanship. Developers out there need to realize that software is a craft. As such, developers should strive to become craftsmen; strive to learn more about software; strive to write better code; strive to build the best software possible. The software you get from a team of true craftsmen will be unrivaled. It is the goal and quality within that drives a team of craftsmen. They'll find a way to overcome obstacles and adapt to changes... despite management. [...] [...] Posted by Micah Mon, 27 Oct 2008 15:46:00 GMT Last week I attended Agiles2008 in Buenos Aires, Argentina. It was a fun, high energy conference. The highlight was a heated panel discussion at the closing of the conference. On the Panel was Matt Gelbwaks, myself, Tom and Marry Poppdieck, Dave Nicolette, and Tobias Mayer. Tobias has already posted a blog about the event. So that my opinion is not misconstrued, I’ll share it with you here. The future of Agile is Software Craftsmanship. Software is a young industry and we’re still discovering more about it every day. Yet, it has it’s origins in electrical engineering. So it’s seems that, at it’s inception, people assumed software was a form of engineering. And to build software systems should be no different from engineering any other creation. Take a bridge for example. Before building a bridge, you have to analyze the bridge requirements. How long will it be? How much weight must it hold? etc… Once the requirements are understood, you design a solution. Build to-scale models that you can push and stress to make sure the design hold up. Then, once you have a solid design, can you begin construction of the bridge. It’s waterfall. Waterfall worked for engineering so waterfall was applied to software. We know now that waterfall doesn’t work. Agile, is a realization that software is not a form of engineering. Agile is a realization that software is a craft. I have been to every North American Agile conference since the very first, and I have noticed a trend. In the first conference in Charlotte NC, laptops were open on every table, around every corner, with someone or a pair of people writing code. In many of the sessions, people were writing code or talking about it. This is the conference where people were bragging about their Ward number and desperately trying to improve it. It was truly a conference about software. Over the years, less and less coding could be found at the conferences. This last year, at the conference in Toronto, it was abysmal. Although there was some good content, I felt like the conference had been taken over by Scrum Masters. It was no longer a conference about software development. It had become a conference about project management, people management, and Scrum. This makes me sad. In middle ages, if you were a lord and you wanted to build a cathedral, you found a master craftsman. The master craftsman recruited other craftsmen and together they constructed amazing buildings that still stand today. These craftsman were passionate about their work and cared about creating great buildings. That is what made it work. They didn’t have scrum masters telling them what to do or cheering them on. The great work they did is a tribute to their craftsmanship. The future of Agile is Software Craftsmanship. Developers out there need to realize that software is a craft. As such, developers should strive to become craftsmen; strive to learn more about software; strive to write better code; strive to build the best software possible. The software you get from a team of true craftsmen will be unrivaled. It is the goal and quality within that drives a team of craftsmen. They’ll find a way to overcome obstacles and adapt to changes… despite management. [...]

]]> By: Andrea Maietta http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/comment-page-1/#comment-138708 Andrea Maietta Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:14:16 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/#comment-138708 Even if I have just become a CSM, I have to agree about the importance of the certification itself; as our instructor Joseph Pelrine said, "I can only certificate that we breathed the same air for a couple of days". That said, Scrum is about addressing the chaos you tipically get in a complex and fast changing environment, not about developing software: I always use it with my wife whenever we have to "refactor" our garden (ok, that's not too complex an environment, but I'm sure you get the point). If you're looking for practices to improve the quality of software, you're looking in the wrong place. One word of caution: Scrum really fosters software quality improvement, but it does not provoke it. People improve software quality. Scrum is not bad because you see many bad Scrum implementations; I'm sure you can find bad implementations of almost everything (OO is not bad because many programmers disguise their procedural code - which is not bad per se, but the mix of the two is often weird). I want to stress that a SM does not tell the team what to do, as he is not the leader; he is a servant to the team (sort of an istance of the "sacrifice one person" strategy by Cockburn). I also agree with the fact that a team needs a good leader (I know many will not agree with that). The only difference is that the leader should emerge naturally in the team, and should not be superimposed. Even if I have just become a CSM, I have to agree about the importance of the certification itself; as our instructor Joseph Pelrine said, “I can only certificate that we breathed the same air for a couple of days”.

That said, Scrum is about addressing the chaos you tipically get in a complex and fast changing environment, not about developing software: I always use it with my wife whenever we have to “refactor” our garden (ok, that’s not too complex an environment, but I’m sure you get the point). If you’re looking for practices to improve the quality of software, you’re looking in the wrong place. One word of caution: Scrum really fosters software quality improvement, but it does not provoke it. People improve software quality.

Scrum is not bad because you see many bad Scrum implementations; I’m sure you can find bad implementations of almost everything (OO is not bad because many programmers disguise their procedural code – which is not bad per se, but the mix of the two is often weird). I want to stress that a SM does not tell the team what to do, as he is not the leader; he is a servant to the team (sort of an istance of the “sacrifice one person” strategy by Cockburn).

I also agree with the fact that a team needs a good leader (I know many will not agree with that). The only difference is that the leader should emerge naturally in the team, and should not be superimposed.

]]> By: Diego Fontdevila http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/comment-page-1/#comment-138707 Diego Fontdevila Mon, 27 Oct 2008 02:09:39 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/#comment-138707 Tobias, I just want to say that I am sorry she got through to you there at the end and maybe took out a bit of the joy we all shared at the conference. The hostility you perceived I cannot trace (some of the guys here might have got it right), but I think that's how she is, and she got her sharp tongue under your armor. Anyway, as Terry Pratchett says in Wings: "The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it." and Mary seems just the kind. One last thought on certifications, after the panel I talked to you about colored belts in martial arts and how they were designed for the occidental mind to help teach us oriental techniques by giving us a feeling of small intermediate accomplishment. I think the most remarkable analogy is that both martial arts and the CSM share the significance of the relation between master and student. I think the CSM course I took with Alan [Cyment] was astounding, and I know he learned from you. What you do is not like what everybody else does, so beyond all the little nuisances, beyond the fact that we are all loving software development, I am happy I got to learn from you guys. <em>Response: Thanks Diego.  Mary didn't really get under my skin, just a little itch :-)  She said some valuable things, and perhaps on reflection a public forum was a fine place to say them.  A little disturbance is sometimes necessary to keep us from complacency.  </em> Tobias, I just want to say that I am sorry she got through to you there at the end and maybe took out a bit of the joy we all shared at the conference. The hostility you perceived I cannot trace (some of the guys here might have got it right), but I think that’s how she is, and she got her sharp tongue under your armor.
Anyway, as Terry Pratchett says in Wings: “The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.” and Mary seems just the kind.

One last thought on certifications, after the panel I talked to you about colored belts in martial arts and how they were designed for the occidental mind to help teach us oriental techniques by giving us a feeling of small intermediate accomplishment. I think the most remarkable analogy is that both martial arts and the CSM share the significance of the relation between master and student. I think the CSM course I took with Alan [Cyment] was astounding, and I know he learned from you. What you do is not like what everybody else does, so beyond all the little nuisances, beyond the fact that we are all loving software development, I am happy I got to learn from you guys.

Response: Thanks Diego.  Mary didn’t really get under my skin, just a little itch :-)   She said some valuable things, and perhaps on reflection a public forum was a fine place to say them.  A little disturbance is sometimes necessary to keep us from complacency. 

]]> By: Mario Estrella http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/comment-page-1/#comment-138706 Mario Estrella Mon, 27 Oct 2008 00:47:11 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/#comment-138706 One additional thought, There's a very popular video on infoq (http://www.infoq.com/interviews/poppendieck-lean-2007) where Mary praises Scrum as very good framework... "Scrum is a fine example of a Lean environment. Scrum is a set of practices; this is how you do things. Lean would be the principles behind those practices. Lean is the general principles that encourage you to use something like Scrum". One additional thought,

There’s a very popular video on infoq (http://www.infoq.com/interviews/poppendieck-lean-2007) where Mary praises Scrum as very good framework…

“Scrum is a fine example of a Lean environment. Scrum is a set of practices; this is how you do things. Lean would be the principles behind those practices. Lean is the general principles that encourage you to use something like Scrum”.

]]> By: Mario Estrella http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/comment-page-1/#comment-138705 Mario Estrella Mon, 27 Oct 2008 00:31:48 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/#comment-138705 I agree with Tobias... agile is more about human collaboration than processes. Not that processes are unimportant, it's just not as important as human interaction, it's all on the Agile Manifesto people. It should not ever be us vs them, it should be what can we uncover by developing software and helping others do it (again, the Manifesto). To me this Lean vs Scrum thing Mary is talking about is as pointless as the now very old discussion of XP vs Scrum that happened some time ago in the groups. Today we see that very successful implementations of agile combine XP practices in a Scrum framework, hell, even Schwaber's original book proposes the combination of two very successful frameworks. Next thing we know we will start seeing Scrum vs Lean TV ads a la PC vs Mac, funny but pointless. It should not even be Agile vs Waterfall, we should evolve towards just Software Development that proves successful, today we have proved that by doing Agile we can achieve that premise, who is to say that tomorrow we will be calling it something else, but in the end it's still software development... our true passion. I have a dream... my dream is that software development makes for a better world for humans to live in. Why can't we all just get along? I agree with Tobias… agile is more about human collaboration than processes. Not that processes are unimportant, it’s just not as important as human interaction, it’s all on the Agile Manifesto people.

It should not ever be us vs them, it should be what can we uncover by developing software and helping others do it (again, the Manifesto).

To me this Lean vs Scrum thing Mary is talking about is as pointless as the now very old discussion of XP vs Scrum that happened some time ago in the groups. Today we see that very successful implementations of agile combine XP practices in a Scrum framework, hell, even Schwaber’s original book proposes the combination of two very successful frameworks.

Next thing we know we will start seeing Scrum vs Lean TV ads a la PC vs Mac, funny but pointless.

It should not even be Agile vs Waterfall, we should evolve towards just Software Development that proves successful, today we have proved that by doing Agile we can achieve that premise, who is to say that tomorrow we will be calling it something else, but in the end it’s still software development… our true passion.

I have a dream… my dream is that software development makes for a better world for humans to live in.

Why can’t we all just get along?

]]> By: Lucas Godoy http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/comment-page-1/#comment-138704 Lucas Godoy Sun, 26 Oct 2008 23:39:26 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2008/10/23/getting-trashed-by-the-lean-machine/#comment-138704 Hi I attended the conference. I'm taking my first steps in agile development and I got to say I understand both positions. As a programmer, I'm with Micah because I prefer to do some TDD & refactoring instead of having a guy chasing me with some cards :) But I understand that Scrum is a very organized way to work and I guess it's useful (we still don't use it in our company, because it's a small one). The position of Mary it's kind of radical. Maybe it sounded aggresive, but that's her personality. <em>Response: Lucus, I absolutely agree with you and Micah that developers need to take responsibility for their own work.  I am going to repeat something from the original post: the Scrum Master should NOT tell the developers what to do.  That is not his/her job.  The Scrum Master's job is to field the dysfunction exactly so the developers can focus on their craft.</em> Hi

I attended the conference. I’m taking my first steps in agile development and I got to say I understand both positions.

As a programmer, I’m with Micah because I prefer to do some TDD & refactoring instead of having a guy chasing me with some cards :)

But I understand that Scrum is a very organized way to work and I guess it’s useful (we still don’t use it in our company, because it’s a small one).

The position of Mary it’s kind of radical. Maybe it sounded aggresive, but that’s her personality.

Response: Lucus, I absolutely agree with you and Micah that developers need to take responsibility for their own work.  I am going to repeat something from the original post: the Scrum Master should NOT tell the developers what to do.  That is not his/her job.  The Scrum Master’s job is to field the dysfunction exactly so the developers can focus on their craft.

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