Comments on: No More Self-Organizing Teams. Not. http://agilethinking.net/blog/2007/09/13/no-more-self-organizing-teams-not/ Tobias Mayer's Blog Wed, 15 Oct 2008 00:34:57 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.2 by: Kathryn Alexander http://agilethinking.net/blog/2007/09/13/no-more-self-organizing-teams-not/#comment-25910 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:09:30 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2007/09/13/no-more-self-organizing-teams-not/#comment-25910 OK, I'm an outsider, an organization development consultant. I've been very attracted to this discussion as it is one that has been happening in organizations for over 15 years, that I know of. Self-organizing requires very transparent information and communication. It is NOT anarchy it only works well within clear boundaries. Leadership is often needed to interface with those boundaries. Light Touch is a nice term, it maybe an easier sell to autocratic managers and a way to get them to ease up. It does seem to subvert the real issue, it seems to me. Consulting for years I can tell you that names and words change with the times. It seems to be a constant job to language what you do as folks begin to play with and subvert the original meanings. The truth is that groups do not work well is they cannot control their own actions and act appropriately and in a timely fashion to changes. This happens best when they are free to self-organize! OK, I’m an outsider, an organization development consultant. I’ve been very attracted to this discussion as it is one that has been happening in organizations for over 15 years, that I know of. Self-organizing requires very transparent information and communication. It is NOT anarchy it only works well within clear boundaries. Leadership is often needed to interface with those boundaries. Light Touch is a nice term, it maybe an easier sell to autocratic managers and a way to get them to ease up. It does seem to subvert the real issue, it seems to me. Consulting for years I can tell you that names and words change with the times. It seems to be a constant job to language what you do as folks begin to play with and subvert the original meanings. The truth is that groups do not work well is they cannot control their own actions and act appropriately and in a timely fashion to changes. This happens best when they are free to self-organize!

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by: Sanjiv Augustine http://agilethinking.net/blog/2007/09/13/no-more-self-organizing-teams-not/#comment-25732 Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:57:42 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2007/09/13/no-more-self-organizing-teams-not/#comment-25732 This is a discussion that gets to the essence of Agile methods. Both Jim’s and Tobias’ posts are impassioned and display remarkable shared concern for preserving the hard-won value wrought by Agile methods in tough environments. But there’s also a difference, that though barely perceptible, reveals a divide to those familiar with the territory. The dividing line becomes clearer when one reads the follow up messages – the line faults along manager and non-manager. To managers, this is about something very, very fundamental. Managers are interested in understanding how to add value on Agile teams and discover the best value-adding role for them on Agile projects. So, to my mind this is really about the role of the manager on the Agile team. See my Blog post on this topic here: <a target="_blank" title="http://lithespeed.blogspot.com/2007/09/agile-project-management-role-of.html" href="http://lithespeed.blogspot.com/2007/09/agile-project-management-role-of.html">lithespeed.blogspot.com</a>. Agile methods have been great about defining how developers can add value. With the product owner role becoming more solidly defined in Scrum, business analysts can jump on board as well as product owners or product owner proxies. But what about managers, and testers (anyone remember those guys who used to show up with reams full of defect listings?). And how about user interface designers (users do like those cool interfaces and design is an increasingly sought-after specialization), production specialists (maintaining production environments that are reliable and secure is an expert skill), etc. The truth is that, as Agile methods are successfully making the transition into the mainstream, they are being quietly adapted to fit into large, complex organizations. And work in large, complex organizations tends to flow across organizational silos. Yes, significant strides have been made in creating integrated teams that collapse some organizational silos. And yes, on those teams, costly handoffs have been eliminated or at least reduced. But, the prevailing reality is that, in most organizations, organizational silos with division of labor exist in some shape or form. And in most large organizations, those silos are represented on Agile projects. Therein, I think, lies the core issue. Can division of labor be completely eliminated from Agile projects and teams? Most managers, I believe, will take the pragmatic view, press for an integrated team, and then manage work across said silos. Others will hold that the organizational structure itself is flawed, and therefore needs to be completely replaced. Rid organizations of the scourge of division of labor, move to completely integrated teams, adopt a craft model, and everything will be solved, they hold. Managers – at least those not appointed by the team – will then not be necessary, they believe. Perhaps. But, as long as organizational silos exist, some division of labor is necessary for effective functioning, and these discussions will continue. As for leadership, it’s like mom-and-apple-pie. Everyone seems to agree that leadership is a good thing, don’t they? Though how that leadership is appointed, sanctioned or manifested is the subject of debate, I think we all agree that leadership is a good thing on Agile teams. My own position is that, if we can find ways to reduce non-value added management work caused by the reality of organizational silos (via Lean Kanban systems, etc), we can then all – managers and non-managers alike – get down to the important business of figuring how to lead our Agile teams. To that end, Light Touch Leadership, as Jim articulates, is a great way for managers to lead Agile teams in a way that is completely congruent with the Agile value system, but that also acknowledges the reality of organizational silos and division of labor in most organizations. This is a discussion that gets to the essence of Agile methods. Both Jim’s and Tobias’ posts are impassioned and display remarkable shared concern for preserving the hard-won value wrought by Agile methods in tough environments. But there’s also a difference, that though barely perceptible, reveals a divide to those familiar with the territory. The dividing line becomes clearer when one reads the follow up messages – the line faults along manager and non-manager. To managers, this is about something very, very fundamental. Managers are interested in understanding how to add value on Agile teams and discover the best value-adding role for them on Agile projects. So, to my mind this is really about the role of the manager on the Agile team. See my Blog post on this topic here: lithespeed.blogspot.com.

Agile methods have been great about defining how developers can add value. With the product owner role becoming more solidly defined in Scrum, business analysts can jump on board as well as product owners or product owner proxies. But what about managers, and testers (anyone remember those guys who used to show up with reams full of defect listings?). And how about user interface designers (users do like those cool interfaces and design is an increasingly sought-after specialization), production specialists (maintaining production environments that are reliable and secure is an expert skill), etc. The truth is that, as Agile methods are successfully making the transition into the mainstream, they are being quietly adapted to fit into large, complex organizations. And work in large, complex organizations tends to flow across organizational silos. Yes, significant strides have been made in creating integrated teams that collapse some organizational silos. And yes, on those teams, costly handoffs have been eliminated or at least reduced. But, the prevailing reality is that, in most organizations, organizational silos with division of labor exist in some shape or form. And in most large organizations, those silos are represented on Agile projects. Therein, I think, lies the core issue. Can division of labor be completely eliminated from Agile projects and teams?

Most managers, I believe, will take the pragmatic view, press for an integrated team, and then manage work across said silos. Others will hold that the organizational structure itself is flawed, and therefore needs to be completely replaced. Rid organizations of the scourge of division of labor, move to completely integrated teams, adopt a craft model, and everything will be solved, they hold. Managers – at least those not appointed by the team – will then not be necessary, they believe. Perhaps. But, as long as organizational silos exist, some division of labor is necessary for effective functioning, and these discussions will continue.

As for leadership, it’s like mom-and-apple-pie. Everyone seems to agree that leadership is a good thing, don’t they? Though how that leadership is appointed, sanctioned or manifested is the subject of debate, I think we all agree that leadership is a good thing on Agile teams. My own position is that, if we can find ways to reduce non-value added management work caused by the reality of organizational silos (via Lean Kanban systems, etc), we can then all – managers and non-managers alike – get down to the important business of figuring how to lead our Agile teams. To that end, Light Touch Leadership, as Jim articulates, is a great way for managers to lead Agile teams in a way that is completely congruent with the Agile value system, but that also acknowledges the reality of organizational silos and division of labor in most organizations.

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by: Richard Telofski http://agilethinking.net/blog/2007/09/13/no-more-self-organizing-teams-not/#comment-22531 Tue, 25 Sep 2007 15:48:10 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2007/09/13/no-more-self-organizing-teams-not/#comment-22531 You say above: "The need for a leader, and more importantly the type of leader, should emerge from the need of the team, not be imposed ahead of time, or indeed at any time." If that was true, during World War II the Third Army would have picked Betty Grable to lead them instead of Patton. <em>Response:</em> <em>:-) ...and your point? </em> You say above: “The need for a leader, and more importantly the type of leader, should emerge from the need of the team, not be imposed ahead of time, or indeed at any time.”

If that was true, during World War II the Third Army would have picked Betty Grable to lead them instead of Patton.

Response:

:-) …and your point? 

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by: Shane Schulte http://agilethinking.net/blog/2007/09/13/no-more-self-organizing-teams-not/#comment-22439 Tue, 25 Sep 2007 02:32:02 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2007/09/13/no-more-self-organizing-teams-not/#comment-22439 It seems as if Jim Highsmith's efforts to scale Scrum at an enterprise level has caused him to rethink some of his initial mandates. It concerns me that Scrum is becoming a 'commodity' that can be purchased. A colleague at work, in a debate over terms, shouted, "If that makes me a Scrum purist, then so be it!" This smells like positioning. Its unfortunate. Personally, I'm losing interest in Scrum and how its sold to software developers. I'm much more interested in the thoughts and ideas of people working in the trenches and sharing what works for them. Sometimes this is Scrum, sometimes its not. It seems as if Jim Highsmith’s efforts to scale Scrum at an enterprise level has caused him to rethink some of his initial mandates. It concerns me that Scrum is becoming a ‘commodity’ that can be purchased. A colleague at work, in a debate over terms, shouted, “If that makes me a Scrum purist, then so be it!”

This smells like positioning. Its unfortunate. Personally, I’m losing interest in Scrum and how its sold to software developers. I’m much more interested in the thoughts and ideas of people working in the trenches and sharing what works for them. Sometimes this is Scrum, sometimes its not.

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by: David Spann http://agilethinking.net/blog/2007/09/13/no-more-self-organizing-teams-not/#comment-21137 Tue, 18 Sep 2007 00:31:05 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2007/09/13/no-more-self-organizing-teams-not/#comment-21137 I think there are several organizational issues that could be "unpeeled" with Jim's comments. First, I believe that teams can work well on their own if their mission is well understood and communication channels are honest and transparent. Secondly, I believe a facilitative-like leader can help even the best teams find resources, resolve conflicts, and move towards their destination quicker than if that person was not in position. Thirdly, I believe organizations made up of collaborative leaders, motivated and creative teams of people and a transparent process for allocating resources will always create better results than those in which autocratic controls are enforced. Having said all that, I also believe that the process of self-organization can only exist within communities that know each other well. And typically, that ability to know each other diminishes severely once the number of people in that community exceeds 150. So, if the self-organization model is going to thrive and not end up in what I might conclude would anacrahnistic chaos, it will depend on a clear and valuable mission, a group of people who take the lead in a facilitative instead of an autocratic approach, and a small enough organization within which people can get to know and trust each other. Not sure there's anything new there, but thought I'd add it just in case. Enjoy, David Spann I think there are several organizational issues that could be “unpeeled” with Jim’s comments. First, I believe that teams can work well on their own if their mission is well understood and communication channels are honest and transparent. Secondly, I believe a facilitative-like leader can help even the best teams find resources, resolve conflicts, and move towards their destination quicker than if that person was not in position. Thirdly, I believe organizations made up of collaborative leaders, motivated and creative teams of people and a transparent process for allocating resources will always create better results than those in which autocratic controls are enforced.

Having said all that, I also believe that the process of self-organization can only exist within communities that know each other well. And typically, that ability to know each other diminishes severely once the number of people in that community exceeds 150. So, if the self-organization model is going to thrive and not end up in what I might conclude would anacrahnistic chaos, it will depend on a clear and valuable mission, a group of people who take the lead in a facilitative instead of an autocratic approach, and a small enough organization within which people can get to know and trust each other.

Not sure there’s anything new there, but thought I’d add it just in case.

Enjoy,

David Spann

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by: HL Arledge http://agilethinking.net/blog/2007/09/13/no-more-self-organizing-teams-not/#comment-20619 Fri, 14 Sep 2007 18:13:09 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2007/09/13/no-more-self-organizing-teams-not/#comment-20619 Thanks, Tobias. My team has been practicing Scrum for over a year. Both our output and our quality are night and day compared to our pre-Scrum environment. Scrum is all about self-organizing teams, but there are still processes and boundaries. It is far from anarchy. Thanks, Tobias. My team has been practicing Scrum for over a year. Both our output and our quality are night and day compared to our pre-Scrum environment. Scrum is all about self-organizing teams, but there are still processes and boundaries. It is far from anarchy.

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by: Guillaume http://agilethinking.net/blog/2007/09/13/no-more-self-organizing-teams-not/#comment-20569 Fri, 14 Sep 2007 11:20:42 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2007/09/13/no-more-self-organizing-teams-not/#comment-20569 I totally second that. Thumbs up. I think this basically is a "managerial" form of the usual IT arguments over "Agile or not Agile". I personnally think the way an IT team is organised is not really a key to success. It certainly is a key to well-being and pleasure at work, but let's face it: a team of good developers will be successful whatever methodology they use, and a team of crappy ones will always equally fail. If there was a key methodology to success over here, we would all know it, wouldn't we? I think this is the same with self-organisation. The way a manager delegates, empower his team or acts as an autoritarian tyran is NOT a key to success. I totally second that. Thumbs up.

I think this basically is a “managerial” form of the usual IT arguments over “Agile or not Agile”. I personnally think the way an IT team is organised is not really a key to success. It certainly is a key to well-being and pleasure at work, but let’s face it: a team of good developers will be successful whatever methodology they use, and a team of crappy ones will always equally fail. If there was a key methodology to success over here, we would all know it, wouldn’t we?

I think this is the same with self-organisation. The way a manager delegates, empower his team or acts as an autoritarian tyran is NOT a key to success.

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by: David H. http://agilethinking.net/blog/2007/09/13/no-more-self-organizing-teams-not/#comment-20478 Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:47:27 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2007/09/13/no-more-self-organizing-teams-not/#comment-20478 Thank you Tobias. I got a hold of the article via a friend and I agree with you. I do not quite understand how someone such as Jim Highsmith would make the mistake of posting a publication like that. Thank you. <em>Update: Jim Highsmith has now made the article public at <a target="_blank" href="http://blog.cutter.com/2007/09/13/no-more-self-organizing-teams/">the Cutter blog</a>.  </em> Thank you Tobias. I got a hold of the article via a friend and I agree with you. I do not quite understand how someone such as Jim Highsmith would make the mistake of posting a publication like that. Thank you.

Update: Jim Highsmith has now made the article public at the Cutter blog

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by: MG http://agilethinking.net/blog/2007/09/13/no-more-self-organizing-teams-not/#comment-20459 Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:12:48 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2007/09/13/no-more-self-organizing-teams-not/#comment-20459 "Jesus of Nazareth was an anarchist. So was Gandhi." That's a bold claim. I wonder, can you can support it with evidence? <em>Response: Hi MG, That's a tough challenge :] I suggest you read the Wikipedia entry on anarchism (as a starting point) and then read the New Testament and a Gandhi biography. Draw your own conclusions.  To bring it closer to home... perhaps <a target="_blank" href="http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Thomas+Paine%22+anarchist&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a">Thomas Paine</a> was an anarchist too.</em> “Jesus of Nazareth was an anarchist. So was Gandhi.”

That’s a bold claim. I wonder, can you can support it with evidence?

Response: Hi MG, That’s a tough challenge :] I suggest you read the Wikipedia entry on anarchism (as a starting point) and then read the New Testament and a Gandhi biography. Draw your own conclusions.  To bring it closer to home… perhaps Thomas Paine was an anarchist too.

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