Comments on: The Problem with CSM Courses… http://agilethinking.net/blog/2006/07/10/the-problem-with-csm-courses/ Tobias Mayer's Blog Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:53:13 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.2 by: Net Objectives Thoughts » Blog Archive » Improve your team or get a silver person? http://agilethinking.net/blog/2006/07/10/the-problem-with-csm-courses/#comment-12741 Sat, 09 Jun 2007 04:28:01 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2006/07/10/the-problem-with-csm-courses/#comment-12741 [...] Net Objectives is one of the biggest Scrum training providers in the world.  We have one trainer who estimates he’s trained 350 people at one company in Scrum over the last couple of years.  None of this training is Certified Scrum Training, however.  Why?  Because why would a company need 350 ScrumMasters?  They need 350 Scrum team members.  This would be equivalent to sending everyone to PM training.  Kind of like a football team.  Do you send everyone to a school to teach everyone how to coach?  Or do you send them to a school where they all learn how to play football?  Tobias Mayer, a former CST, writes about this in his blog entry as well “The Problem With CSM Courses“.  [...] […] Net Objectives is one of the biggest Scrum training providers in the world.  We have one trainer who estimates he’s trained 350 people at one company in Scrum over the last couple of years.  None of this training is Certified Scrum Training, however.  Why?  Because why would a company need 350 ScrumMasters?  They need 350 Scrum team members.  This would be equivalent to sending everyone to PM training.  Kind of like a football team.  Do you send everyone to a school to teach everyone how to coach?  Or do you send them to a school where they all learn how to play football?  Tobias Mayer, a former CST, writes about this in his blog entry as well “The Problem With CSM Courses“.  […]

]]> by: Michael James http://agilethinking.net/blog/2006/07/10/the-problem-with-csm-courses/#comment-210 Tue, 05 Dec 2006 06:32:28 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2006/07/10/the-problem-with-csm-courses/#comment-210 I'm still using the sidebar approach to get them thinking about Scrum before the course starts, and also in the habit of tabling off-topic questions for later. They'll need this habit when they start attending timeboxed meetings in real life. I’m still using the sidebar approach to get them thinking about Scrum before the course starts, and also in the habit of tabling off-topic questions for later. They’ll need this habit when they start attending timeboxed meetings in real life.

]]> by: Tobias http://agilethinking.net/blog/2006/07/10/the-problem-with-csm-courses/#comment-13 Thu, 20 Jul 2006 04:19:16 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2006/07/10/the-problem-with-csm-courses/#comment-13 Deb, Recently I have used a slightly different tactic, but I guess the end is simlilar. I ask participants to state their questions and concerns (one per post-it) and place them on a chart called "Sidebar". This is done as the participants arrive. It gets them busy immediately and does not take time out of the course. This way their thoughts are aired, the trainers (or anyone) can read them, but it does not produce a negative feel to the beginning of the course. Like you, we address these issues on day two (mostly) and usually the participants answer all the questions for themselves and find most of the concerns have somewhat melted away. Negative (and positive!) feelings are aired very clearly, early on day one with the Continuum/Sociogram exercise; this is done without anyone having to speak -- I love that!  I certainly do not encourage hiding such feelings. I deal with the red-herring issues the same way you describe here - although sometimes when a particular juicy question comes up I find I can get caught up in a discussion. Sometimes that has merit, sometimes not. In the end, you know, it depends... Deb,

Recently I have used a slightly different tactic, but I guess the end is simlilar. I ask participants to state their questions and concerns (one per post-it) and place them on a chart called “Sidebar”. This is done as the participants arrive. It gets them busy immediately and does not take time out of the course. This way their thoughts are aired, the trainers (or anyone) can read them, but it does not produce a negative feel to the beginning of the course. Like you, we address these issues on day two (mostly) and usually the participants answer all the questions for themselves and find most of the concerns have somewhat melted away.

Negative (and positive!) feelings are aired very clearly, early on day one with the Continuum/Sociogram exercise; this is done without anyone having to speak — I love that!  I certainly do not encourage hiding such feelings.

I deal with the red-herring issues the same way you describe here - although sometimes when a particular juicy question comes up I find I can get caught up in a discussion. Sometimes that has merit, sometimes not.

In the end, you know, it depends…

]]> by: Deb http://agilethinking.net/blog/2006/07/10/the-problem-with-csm-courses/#comment-12 Wed, 19 Jul 2006 23:36:12 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2006/07/10/the-problem-with-csm-courses/#comment-12 A few responses: Paul: > [Mike] went round the attendees, asking what they expected to get out of the course, and writing on a flip chart. I don’t recall him ever going back to that... I myself think this is an important step, for the reason you suggest - gets it out in the open and diffuses it. Tobias: > the danger is in hearing comments to the effect of “I’m here because my boss told me to be here” or “don’t know – don’t know what Scrum is“, which is useful information, but a real downer... Tobias, these thoughts are there and subverting the class whether we say them out loud or not. Allowing people to say them out loud gives them permission to be themselves - to contribute their observations openly - an important Agile lesson, being taught by example. I use a similar tactic to deal with the plethora of red-herring questions that plague day 1: Put a list on the wall "Issues" and park things there that you don't want to forget to come back to. The person had got it out of their head, they are assured it will not be lost, and now they can focus again on what you are talking about. Just DON'T forget to come back to the list. When I did this in a CSM, the result was: 50% had been answered by the end of day 2, 25% were too complex for the context of the course, but suggestions for further investigation could be made (book, follow-up meeting etc.), and 25% were good questions worth addressing. I had people vote on which of those they most wanted to talk about (voting with markers) and then we did for half an hour or so. It's empowering, affirming, and gets the red herrings out of the way of your material. What do you think? deb A few responses:

Paul:
> [Mike] went round the attendees, asking what they expected to get out of the course, and writing on a flip chart. I don’t recall him ever going back to that…
I myself think this is an important step, for the reason you suggest - gets it out in the open and diffuses it.

Tobias:
> the danger is in hearing comments to the effect of “I’m here because my boss told me to be here” or “don’t know – don’t know what Scrum is“, which is useful information, but a real downer…

Tobias, these thoughts are there and subverting the class whether we say them out loud or not. Allowing people to say them out loud gives them permission to be themselves - to contribute their observations openly - an important Agile lesson, being taught by example.

I use a similar tactic to deal with the plethora of red-herring questions that plague day 1: Put a list on the wall “Issues” and park things there that you don’t want to forget to come back to. The person had got it out of their head, they are assured it will not be lost, and now they can focus again on what you are talking about. Just DON’T forget to come back to the list. When I did this in a CSM, the result was: 50% had been answered by the end of day 2, 25% were too complex for the context of the course, but suggestions for further investigation could be made (book, follow-up meeting etc.), and 25% were good questions worth addressing. I had people vote on which of those they most wanted to talk about (voting with markers) and then we did for half an hour or so. It’s empowering, affirming, and gets the red herrings out of the way of your material.

What do you think?

deb

]]> by: Bazil http://agilethinking.net/blog/2006/07/10/the-problem-with-csm-courses/#comment-11 Thu, 13 Jul 2006 12:25:34 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2006/07/10/the-problem-with-csm-courses/#comment-11 I totally agree - the CSM course is well attended, partly because there are no alternatives. It's misleading to read this demand as a desire for this kind of course. Most skills relevant to being on a scrum team, both process and behavioural, are best learnt in a different format. I have just done Ken's CSM course in London, which I loved, but then I want to be a CSM for professional reasons. The problem for me is that having all these CSMs (4000+?) around devalues the certification itself when so many of them have no intention to further develop their skills in this area. I totally agree - the CSM course is well attended, partly because there are no alternatives. It’s misleading to read this demand as a desire for this kind of course.

Most skills relevant to being on a scrum team, both process and behavioural, are best learnt in a different format.

I have just done Ken’s CSM course in London, which I loved, but then I want to be a CSM for professional reasons.

The problem for me is that having all these CSMs (4000+?) around devalues the certification itself when so many of them have no intention to further develop their skills in this area.

]]> by: Tobias http://agilethinking.net/blog/2006/07/10/the-problem-with-csm-courses/#comment-10 Tue, 11 Jul 2006 21:07:49 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2006/07/10/the-problem-with-csm-courses/#comment-10 On a public course I can see this working (although personally I prefer to use a dialoging exercise, rather than going round the room - I find the latter to result in non-listening and fidgeting of the non-speaking participants; the dialoging form is more engaging). On an in-house course, the danger is in hearing comments to the effect of "<em>I'm here because my boss told me to be here</em>" or "<em>don't know – don't know what Scrum is</em>", which is useful information, but a real downer of a way to open the course, especially when a number of people are expressing that attitude. There is an essential difference between running a public CSM course and an in-house CSM course, as mentioned in the original post. The challenge (for me) is getting early engagement from a bunch of people that don't really care.  Michael and I are running another in-house CSM course in Oregon next week. I'll write a new blog entry on how that one goes. On a public course I can see this working (although personally I prefer to use a dialoging exercise, rather than going round the room - I find the latter to result in non-listening and fidgeting of the non-speaking participants; the dialoging form is more engaging).

On an in-house course, the danger is in hearing comments to the effect of “I’m here because my boss told me to be here” or “don’t know – don’t know what Scrum is“, which is useful information, but a real downer of a way to open the course, especially when a number of people are expressing that attitude.

There is an essential difference between running a public CSM course and an in-house CSM course, as mentioned in the original post. The challenge (for me) is getting early engagement from a bunch of people that don’t really care. 

Michael and I are running another in-house CSM course in Oregon next week. I’ll write a new blog entry on how that one goes.

]]> by: Paul Oldfield http://agilethinking.net/blog/2006/07/10/the-problem-with-csm-courses/#comment-9 Tue, 11 Jul 2006 19:53:02 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2006/07/10/the-problem-with-csm-courses/#comment-9 &#62; <em>There was a lot of confusion from the participants as to why they were there and what the course was actually about.</em> I noticed when I attended Mike Cohn's course, almost straight away he went round the attendees, asking what they expected to get out of the course, and writing headers up on a flip chart. I don't recall him ever going back to that, but it did straight away give the impression that he'd take people's goals into account. Maybe that was the intention all along - get it out of the way and get on with the real work? > There was a lot of confusion from the participants as to why they were there and what the course was actually about.

I noticed when I attended Mike Cohn’s course, almost straight away he went round the attendees, asking what they expected to get out of the course, and writing headers up on a flip chart. I don’t recall him ever going back to that, but it did straight away give the impression that he’d take people’s goals into account. Maybe that was the intention all along - get it out of the way and get on with the real work?

]]> by: Tobias http://agilethinking.net/blog/2006/07/10/the-problem-with-csm-courses/#comment-8 Mon, 10 Jul 2006 21:14:00 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2006/07/10/the-problem-with-csm-courses/#comment-8 Thanks for the comments, Alex. <em>> We just built our own workshops, and would be happy to share these.</em> I believe this is true for most Scrum Trainers/training organizations. I have heard of (what sound like) some very good team training, etc. courses run by other CSM/Ts.  I have also run different types of training myself. My comment was more about the "certification" aspect. Companies will buy cerification, and think they are getting a better deal for that. Usually they are not. The Scrum Alliance, as a self-appointed governing body for Scrum standards, should either endorse other types of courses to have the "certified" label - or better yet, drop the label altogether from all courses. Being certified as a ScrumMaster should entail practice and experience; it should not come from a two-day course. Thanks for the comments, Alex.

> We just built our own workshops, and would be happy to share these.

I believe this is true for most Scrum Trainers/training organizations. I have heard of (what sound like) some very good team training, etc. courses run by other CSM/Ts.  I have also run different types of training myself. My comment was more about the “certification” aspect. Companies will buy cerification, and think they are getting a better deal for that. Usually they are not.

The Scrum Alliance, as a self-appointed governing body for Scrum standards, should either endorse other types of courses to have the “certified” label - or better yet, drop the label altogether from all courses.

Being certified as a ScrumMaster should entail practice and experience; it should not come from a two-day course.

]]> by: Alex Pukinskis http://agilethinking.net/blog/2006/07/10/the-problem-with-csm-courses/#comment-7 Mon, 10 Jul 2006 21:00:13 +0000 http://agilethinking.net/blog/2006/07/10/the-problem-with-csm-courses/#comment-7 We're always adjusting our version of the CSM course to make it work better. Lately the first half of the first day kicks off with gathering personal objectives from all participants and setting ground rules and expectations. We've been taking more time to set things up - up to 45 minutes before we get deep into any Scrum or Agile content. We then jump into the Servant Leader/Command and Control exercise, do a brief overview of Agile and Scrum, and then do the 59 minute Scrum, which takes us to lunch. Afternoon on the first day is all about roles and responsibilities. For an internal CSM course, this means how do we map the Scrum roles onto our existing organizational roles. By the end of the day we've also introduced the Product Backlog in depth and started on iteration planning. I suspect this is a different structure than many CSM Trainers use; since I'm not a CSM-T I haven't been invited to participate in Trainer gatherings (although I have co-taught the CSM course with CSM-Ts many times). It's definitely true that the internal courses are harder to deliver than the public ones, for reasons you identifiud. We've started doing other topically specific courses as part of large enterprise rollouts; many people go through the CSM course, but some also go through Product Owner training, User Story training, Scrum-of-Scrums/Release Train workshops, or agile test training. We just built our own workshops, and would be happy to share these. The CSM course is a great baseline of core concepts, but delivering it internally requires that you do a good job of collecting personal objectives, adapting the course in realtime, and using a Parking Lot so that you are sure to meet the purpose of the course. We’re always adjusting our version of the CSM course to make it work better. Lately the first half of the first day kicks off with gathering personal objectives from all participants and setting ground rules and expectations. We’ve been taking more time to set things up - up to 45 minutes before we get deep into any Scrum or Agile content. We then jump into the Servant Leader/Command and Control exercise, do a brief overview of Agile and Scrum, and then do the 59 minute Scrum, which takes us to lunch.

Afternoon on the first day is all about roles and responsibilities. For an internal CSM course, this means how do we map the Scrum roles onto our existing organizational roles. By the end of the day we’ve also introduced the Product Backlog in depth and started on iteration planning.

I suspect this is a different structure than many CSM Trainers use; since I’m not a CSM-T I haven’t been invited to participate in Trainer gatherings (although I have co-taught the CSM course with CSM-Ts many times).

It’s definitely true that the internal courses are harder to deliver than the public ones, for reasons you identifiud. We’ve started doing other topically specific courses as part of large enterprise rollouts; many people go through the CSM course, but some also go through Product Owner training, User Story training, Scrum-of-Scrums/Release Train workshops, or agile test training. We just built our own workshops, and would be happy to share these.

The CSM course is a great baseline of core concepts, but delivering it internally requires that you do a good job of collecting personal objectives, adapting the course in realtime, and using a Parking Lot so that you are sure to meet the purpose of the course.

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